After looking at the hi-res pictures...I'm amazed. It surfaced and steamed home under it's own power, and only lost one sailer.

Given the damage, that's incredible.

US navy, British/Australian Navy, Japan's Navy, etc could head your way pretty quick. Also, they were headed to Australia from Guam, and I would assume that it is a pretty common trip for most Navy vessles since moving to Guam in 2002. Of course it would appear that The San Fran was going a route not normally taken, but I would think that ships would be in the area. It's not like they were headed from Guam to Alaska, and even if they were way far away from help, I have a feeling that we could get some sort of air drop on the way that could atleast stablize the situation(making the big assumption that the boat could get to the surface of course).

On another note:
Check out this pic:
click

It looks like the bulk heads compressed like a crumple zone just behind the guy to left on the catwalk. Notice the bulge I have to wonder just how much of the ship had to be sealed off to get it water tight.

I wonder how much the repairs will cost or if they will retire the ship and part it out for other units still in service. One could only hope that they would update the ship significantly if they put it back into service.

I guess the navy will have some survey ships working under the guise of science out using some sort of observation equipment to map the sea floor in the net few years. The stuff they used to find the titanic seems like it would be up to the task.

Wes

Answer:
Shit, that was what, 20 years ago? I hope they have something better by now! Plus, I'm sure using that technology to do all water bodies would be a little time prohibitive. If I recall correctly, Ballard used "extra" time after working for the Navy to find the Titanic, and he had a real good idea of where it was.

Mit

If they were on the surface, an aerial damage assessment would tell you less than someone walking out and looking down. Particularly since the person looking down probably knows what he is looking at more than the guy on the helo. When my brother was on Subs, they had a diver on board, who could do a much better job of damage assesment than anything short of a drydock.

As to a helicopter, IIRC an SH 60 has a range of under 400 miles, which means they wouldn't have enough range to make it to the sub and return to Guam. True, it could come from a nearby ship, but there probably wouldn't be any submariners on board ships, so aside from medical people it wouldn't do much good and may actually hurt (as in they may require supervision). They could evacuate some injured, but as all people would need to go up a ladder and out a ~2 foot hatch, (with the ship rolling in open ocean) then be loaded on a hoist and winched to a helicopter, then flown to a ship. I think the odds favor leaving them in their racks for the couple days it would take to get to port than risking further injury trying to transport them. 350 miles out, even if they could only make 10 knots, they would still make it to Guam in a day and a half.

According to the news articles, none of it. The articles mentioned that the pressure hull was not compramised. With damaged ballast tanks, there was probably some problems controlling bouyancy (as Pat mentioned), but it doesn't sound like flooding was a problem.

Tom

They just need to come up with drones that keep going on course at a set depth and broadcast to a satalite.

As for the Pressure hull not being compromised...I saw pat's post but it was unclear to me if that meant they were able to come home with out running evac pumps by sealing doors off or if it was saying that everywhere people are normally working at in the sub while submerged, was not damaged. I guess I was fishing for a little more clarity.

Wes

My boss (former USS Louisville Capt.) told me the front of those ships were meant to be able to take a hit like that. He said he had no doubt the ship made it back to port under it's under power.

The only thing he complained about was the sleeping arraingments. He said he fought with designers over having the sailors heads facing the front of the ship while they slept. If they would have hit while sailors were in their bunks it would have probably broke a few necks.

Steel is cheap. The money in subs is in the reactor and the combat system. Though one does wonder if they won't just mothball it since older boats in the class are being retired. The later, improved, Los Angeles class boats had the forward dive planes located forward on the hull not the sail.

I (and many others) are very curious about what the outcome of this will be - will we repair it or not? Part of the deal with "forward deploying" 3 boats in Guam is that all 3 boats are 1st flight 688s that have just been refueled. As a result, they have a new reactor core that will significantly outlast the rated hull age, so we can forward deploy them in Guam and run them all over the place and never have to worry about core consumption. So, the Navy spent lots and lots of $$$ just a couple years ago to refuel SAN FRAN - do we throw that investment away (and put a serious kink in the PAC Fleet submarine employment schedule) or do we spend lots more $$$ to fix her? There are boats of the same flight that have been decomm'd - perhaps it's feasible to cut the nose of one of those and plop it onto SAN FRAN. I really don't know.

The "people tank" was not breached at all - no need to shut any hatches, no need to pump any water out of the people space.

Yes, it's the wrong assumption. I think they eventually got a couple docs onboard, but it took a couple days to happen. Getting people on/off a submarine in the open ocean is not an easy undertaking, particularly when the submarine is riding low in the water (as was SAN FRAN) because half her main ballast tanks have been crushed. Their only option was to do a helo drop onto the sail. They were unable to medevac anyone because the hatch in the sail doesn't open far enough to allow a backboard to exit there.

There are always ships out there mapping the ocean floor. The problem is it's a really, really big fucking ocean!

I think there will be some serious evaluations by structural and naval engineers on her hull to find out what other damage occurred. Although the pressure hull was not breached, that does not mean it didn't deform (permanently) in some manner. The decision to keep her or scrap her would have to based on a full boat inspection, bow to stern, to look at the hull shape. If it is just bow damage, and we can paste in a new bow a al the USS Wisconsin, that's great.

At least if they scrap her, it's not a total loss. She can be a "donor boat" for some other sub nearing EOL for the reactor core.

And no matter what the outcome, this will provide some very good (though costly) data about the design and manufacturing of our subs. You can simulate crashes all day long with FEA, but a real world test is great verification of all that effort. Having the accident occur at flank speed will provide lots of useful data. The sad part is the loss of a life and the injuries :( - but if it happens, we might as well get something useful out of it.

At least when I was on the 'E' we hit mud when we went aground in '83. I can't imagine hitting a solid rock at flank speed (shudder).

Sub skipper to lose command
 

Link from CNN

I recall someone mentioning early in this thread this was par for the course. I hope more info is released as to the circumstances leading up to the incident.

Link

The following is purported to be the unedited account of the San Francisco grounding written by the on-watch Diving Officer. I received it from a reliable source. I have inserted comments in color to define the jargon or terms that may be unfamiliar to non-submariners.

To say that I've had a bad year so far would be a little short on the tooth I think (understated). Last year was a good one for the boat. After spending 5 months away from home in drydock (Sandy Eggo) we got our second BA (below average) on ORSE (Operational Reactor Safeguards Exam) (bad juju), received the highest score in PacFlt (Pacific Ocean Submarine Force) for a submarine TRE (Tactical Readiness Evaluation, a significant evaluation of the crew's ability to use their weapons systems) inspection, aced (got a high score on) our mine readiness inspection with 4 out of 4 hits, completed 2 outstanding missions (will have to shoot you), and completed a early ORSE just before Christmas with an EXCELLENT.

It was also the first year that Auxiliary Division had a Christmas standown since coming out of the yards in 2002. A-division also took the CSS-15 Red DC award for the second year in a row. My retention has been 100% since I checked on board in Oct 2002 amongst 1st/2nd and turd termers.

We were going to our first true liberty port 2 weeks ago, heading for Brisbane and fun in the sun. As this WOG (a traditional term used by sailors for those who have experienced the crossing the equator, sort of a "right of passage") knows, we were getting ready for our crossing the line ceremony and the crew was really upbeat, and hard charging, we had just completed a great year for the San Fran.

To say the world went to shyte in a hand basket would be an understatement. I would put it closer to a nightmare that becomes reality.

The seamount that is a large part of the discussion the last 2 weeks is un-named. The charts we carried onboard were up to date as far as we can tell. No modern geographic data for this area was available to us onboard as it is a remote area not often traveled by the Navy. We have one of the BEST ANav's (Assistant Navigator) in the fleet onboard, a true quartergasket (quartermaster, the Navy rating that is trained as navigator) that takes pride in his job. We have RLGN's (Ring Laser Gyro Navigation, or, fancy high-end accurate navigation equipment) onboard, when they are running, they are accurate as hell for our position, they also drive Tomahawks (the same cruise missile weapons used in Iraq) .

We knew where we were. All of my depth gauges and digital read the same depths as we changed depth to our SOE (Ship's Operating Envelope, technical specifications for the required minimum or maximum depth for a given speed for a submarine) depth for flank. I can't discuss a lot, because I'm still a participant of at least 2 investigations....LOL.

I was the Diving Officer of the Watch when we grounded. If you read the emails from ComSubPac, you will get some of the details, from flank speed to less than 4 knots in less than 4 seconds. We have it recorded on the RLGN's-those cranky bastages actually stayed up and recorded everything.

For you guys that don't understand that, take a Winnebego full of people milling around and eating, slam it into a concrete wall at about 40mph, and then try to drive the damn thing home and pick up the pieces of the passengers.

As for the actual grounding, I can tell you that it was fortunate that myself and the Chief of the Watch were blessed by somebody. I was standing up, changing the expected soundings for a new depth on the chart (yes, we had just moved into deeper water) leaning against the ship's control panel with a hand grip, and the COW (Chief of the Watch) was leaning down to call the COB on the MJ.

The next thing to cross my mind was why am I pushing myself off of the SCP (Ship's Control Panel, the main instrument and control panel for steering and driving the submarine) and where the hell the air rupture in the control room come from? I didn't know it, but I did a greater than 3g spiderman against the panel, punched a palm through the only plexiglass gauge on the SCP and had my leg crushed by the DOOW (Diving Officer Of the Watch) chair that I had just unbuckled (seatbelts are normally worn at high speeds) from. The DOOW chair was broken loose by the QMOW (QuarterMaster Of the Watch) flying more than 15 feet into it and smashing my leg against a hydraulic valve and the SCP. I don't remember freeing myself from it. If I had been buckled in, I don't think I would be writing this.

The COW (Chief Of the Watch) was slammed against the base of the Ballast Control Panel, and only injured his right arm. He could of destroyed the BCP (Ballast Control Panel), he was a big boy. Everybody else in control, with the exception of the helm, was severely thrown to the deck or other items that were in their way, and at least partially dazed.

Within about 5 seconds of the deceleration! , we blew to the surface, it took that 5 seconds for the COW to climb up the BCP and actuate the EMBT (Emergency Main Ballast Tank) blow.

We prepared to surface right away and got the blower running asap, I didn't know how much damage we had forward but knew it was not good, I wanted that blower running.

I would say that about 80% of the crew was injured in some way, but do not know the number. We grounded in the middle of a meal hour, just after field day, so most of the crew was up. Once we got the boat on the surface and semi-stable with the blower running the rest of the ship conditions started sinking in to our minds.

We were receiving 4MC's (reports over a submarine's emergency-use-only sound-powered phone system) for injured men all over the boat. I was worried that those reports were over whelming any equipment/boat casualties that could make our life worse. I had teams form up of able bodied men to inspect all of the forward elliptical bulkhead, lower level, and tanks below those spaces. I couldn't believe that we did not have flooding, it just didn't fit in. At one point I looked around in the control room, and saw the disaster. The entire control room deck was covered in paper from destroyed binders, and blood. It looked like a slaughterhouse, we had to clean it up.

I knew that Ash (MM2(SS) Joseph Ashley, the only crewmember that did not survive the grounding) was severly injured and brought to the messdecks, he was one of my best men, and one of our best sailors onboard, he was like a son to me. After surfacing I was the control room supervisor, I had a boat to keep on the surface and fight and knew that if I went below to see how he was doing, it would teeter me on the brink of something that the ship did not need, the ship needed somebody who knew her. I have to say that the design engineers at Electric Boat, NavSea and others have designed a submarine that can withstand incredible amounts of damage and survive. We lost no systems, equipment, or anything broke loose during the impact. The damage to our sailors was almost all from them impacting into the equipment.

The crew is a testament to training and watch team backup. When a casualty occurs, you fight like you train, and train like you fight. It kept us alive during that 2+day period.

I've just returned from the honor of escorting my sailor home to his family. God bless them, they are truly good people and patriotic. The Navy is doing everything they can for them and they are learning how submariner's take care of each other. During the memorial and viewing on Saturday, CSS-15 (Commander, Submarine Squadron 15) provided a video from the coast guard of us on the surface and the SEAL/Dr. medical team being helo'd in, the family had this video played on 2 screens in the background. It was a sobering reminder of what a hard woman the ocean can be. We had to call off the helo because of the sea state, it was becoming too dangerous for the aircraft, we almost hit it with the sail a couple of times.

The sea would not allow us to medivac (evacuate people for medical reasons) in our condition and that sea state. I was one of the 23 sent to the hospital that Monday. I was fortunate, my leg was not broken, just trashed/bruised. I walked on that leg for almost 24 hours before it gave out on ! me and they had it splinted. The SEAL made me promise not to walk on it, how do you refuse a SEAL? LOL. So I hopped around on a single leg for awhile, the other chief's were calling me Tiny Tim, LOL. "God bless each and every one! Except you, and you, that guy behind you!". The COB (Chief Of the Boat) threatened to beat my @ss if I walk onboard before my leg is otay, he's about the only man onboard that I'd take that from, hehe.

The crew is doing better, we've lost a few due to the shock of the incident. We will make sure they are taken care of.

The investigation goes on, and I have a new CO. I will only say that the San Fran was the best damn sub in the Navy under CDR Mooney's leadership. We proved that. God bless him and his family no matter what happens in the future, he is truly a good man.

I just need to get my leg healed and get back to fighting my favorite steel bitch (working on his favorite submarine).

So they give a commander a bum set of charts, he uses them properly, hits a rock, and they end his career? I wonder if any Navy cartographers will lose their job over this, or just the guy that was using their map?

It's the nature of the beast. IIRC, there was an article in USNI's Proceedings 20 years ago concerning washing out potential Captain's over minor shiphandling mistakes would have derailed Admiral Nimitz's career. He'd grounded a destroyer as a junior watch officer and the incident didn't prevent him from advancing.

I can't say anything, but I've read the mishap report detailing the results of the initial investigation. There were things the chain of command could/should have seen that would have prevented the grounding - that's why the CO was relieved.

Pat

Fair enough, you're definitely in a position to know more than I do regarding this situation. Thanks Pat.

The whales were using their sonar and caused it to beach. ;)

Rumor I heard is that the chart was not certified for sub use. Just a rumor, but from a reasonably reliable source (and I assume UNCLASS-LCDR Olsen, if I'm wrong, please PM LT to have this post deleted). How a non-sub-certified chart got on a sub, well, the Navy moves in mysterious ways.

From www.strategypage.com

Medical Report

I'm not sure I agree with the way strategypage.com characterizes the intelligence problem. They make it sound as though NGA knew there was a seamount at that location and willfully decided not to put it on a chart. That (in my understanding) is not the case. First of all, the satellites aren't able to tell exactly what is there, or how far below the surface it is - they can just tell there's something there, and thus a survey ship should go accurately survey the area. And that assumes that the data from the survey satellite has been processed and that there has been human interaction with the data so that someone actually knows there's a seamount there. When we were trained on all the lessons learned immediately following the grounding we were told that NGA "found" the seamount as a result of the SAN FRAN grounding - they went and did a targeted search through the satellite survey data and found that yes, there's something there.

As with many of the intelligence agencies, all the money invested gets you lots of cool toys (satellites and other gadgets) that gather shit-tons of data. But it still takes some sort of human interaction to extract information from that data, and that's where NGA was lagging behind. There's no easy fix for that. And once you've identified that there's a spot that needs to be surveyed out in the deep blue sea, you run into the fact that there are only a small number of survey ships around the world to do such surveys. As I recall less than 1% of the ocean bottom has been accurately surveyed by those ships.

Even without that possible seamount shown on the chart, there was enough data available for them to have realized that doing All Ahead Flank in that area was not prudent, which is why people were held accountable.

Looks like someone else is getting an early retirement(possibly with a reduction in rank).


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489590,00.html



How the heck do you hit a reef in what is one of the most charted ports in the world? And what is the typically visibility off Honolulu? 25'? Hell, you should have been able to just look out the window and say, "Hey, Cap, you might want to steer to starboard so we don't hit that reef."

I'm guessing a big part of the answer is...
Even in the GPS age, the ship doesn't drive itself. You have a crew that hasn't been to sea in at least 4 months and they're going to be rusty. Combine that rustiness with some complacency ("Just a routine small boat transfer off the reef runway...") and next thing you know you're in a bad spot.

Mechanical failure could also be in play.

33 foot draft in 22 feet of water..hmmm. This could get ugly fast.

So who was stalking whom?

Huh, very interesting. Being on the left coast I hadn't heard anything about this. I'll have to see if I have any compadres in the Lant or Med that might have some details (not that I could post them here, of course :) ).

Since pretty much every country in Europe has subs, AFAIK they all deconflict waterspace with each other so that this sort of this can't happen. My thinking is this isn't a case of who was stalking whom, but instead is a case of who wasn't where they were supposed to be?

Pat

I guess so. You would think that with both being boomers they would avoid contact, let alone getting close enough to collide.

The French have been getting something of a reputation with regard to their aggressive sigint/RCS activities over the past decade. They're known for putting enough RF on new planes to pop a bag of Pop (top?) Secret every chance they get. Probably selling the data to Iran or at least setting up the marketing pitch that the weapons they have on the market are effective against xx platform... (speculation)

Emitters? I can't see a reason for an aircraft to emit a ton of RF other than an AWACS-type of bird, and you typically don't have a ton of those in your arsenal.

(Yes, warbirds have targeting radar, and most everyone has weather-type radar. I'm talking about light-up-the-entire-sky, flying-aircraft-traffic-controller radar here.)

I believe he is referring to how much RF the French are aiming AT the new planes in order to generate target profiles, etc. Hence the selling info to Iran comment afterwards.

Ah -- I see. I've never worked with active RF (radar, etc...) The stuff I did Way Back When was entirely passive (i.e. listen to the RF spectrum and identify known signals hiding out in all the static.) It's a lot harder for the enemy find you if you're not spraying RF all over the place...

I was referring to the latter. The last time they showed up to red flag, it was pretty much a recon mission to gather electrons from every asset they could spot. We didn't take the F-22 to Paris for the longest time because we knew the frogs would burn the paint off of the thing trying to get a profile they could use. Not to mention the "customs" inspection...

I can only surmise their efforts are just as aggressive in the field and in other branches of the military. Then again, the Brits probably like to sniff butts to get a feel for how their neighbors do business from time to time as well. I know diddly about sub ops - would it even make sense for two ICBM boats to interact?

Not at all. The more I think about this, the more I think it's gotta be either a navigation error or a coordination mistake. Either someone's inertial navigators were on the fritz, or someone got assigned the wrong waterspace.

Or, maybe the information just isn't shared, which is what an article on Time's website is now saying.

So there you have it. A break-down of the "big ocean, small boat" theory. Two modern, very quiet SSBNs creeping along on patrol aren't going to hear each other until they're extremely close.

I do love the ridiculously paranoid press release from the anti-nuke nannies:
:rolleyes: The PHILADELPHIA was hit by a 600+ft, 35,000 ton merchant while on the surface a few years back near Bahrain. The merchant's bow hit a little ways aft of the sail and the merchant rode up and literally drove over the top of PHILLY and got hung up on the sub's rudder. Even a 35,000 ton merchant did nothing but dent the hull. The KURSK had an onboard explosion that tore the nose of the ship off, yet there was no damage to the reactors. The SAN FRANCISCO came about as close as could be to being lost when it slammed into that seamount at 35+mph, and there wasn't any hint of damage to the reactor. The THRESHER and SCORPION, both of which were lost in the 1960s, still have released nothing to the environment (I'm not sure if there's more recent data available, that was the first I found in a quick search). It would take something pretty frickin' catastrophic to rupture the hull and damage the reactor to the point that radiation was released to the environment, but of course the no-nuke nannies wouldn't let a little bit of fact get in the way of a good opportunity to spread fear and misinformation. :mad:

Pat

Port Royal in the dock.

Link fixed. Fucking Chrome can be a pain.

Your link is broken, but I think it was just a cut/paste error.

Link is broken, but it looks like it'll buff out!

That's a lot of trees supporting that ship. That's just damned impressive.

That's WAY higher than when my ship was drydocked in Long Beach, no doubt to clear the bulbous bow. I always had to stoop somewhat to work underneath it. Eerie feeling to know you might get squished if someone miscalculated something or the big one came along.