Vorshlag $2010 GRM Challenge car - BMW E30 V8

[fair]

...or "How to build the perfect autox/track car for $2K"

Starting the build thread for this project here on C-C.com, but it will be mirrored on several other forums, including the Vorshlag Forum. I'll post the same "weekly" update to each. Feel free to ask questions in this thread, but PLEASE BE CONCISE and don't quote the entirety of one of my gigantic posts, or we'll have to read my long winded BS more than once. Thanks.

Inspiration for the look we're striving for on the Vorshlag "$2010 GRM Challenge car"

Project Update # 1 - The Project Idea + Buying the Car: So I was on the phone with our ad guy at GRM recently and we got to talking about the various GRM hosted competition events. We discussed their UTCC event (Ultimate Track Car Challenge), which Vorshlag entered in 2008, and how extreme the entries have become (a $220,000 600hp GTP car won the 2009 UTCC event). I wasn't too keen on entering that again, but then he suggested the GRM $200X Challenge. Why doesn't Vorshlag build a car? I didn't think you guys wanted "shop built" entries? Sure, as long as you follow the same budgetary rules as other teams. Hmm...

What is the GRM $2010 Challenge? A team builds a car with a budget of $2010 or less, then enters it in the Grassroots Motorsports annual event which consists of an autocross, a drag race, and a car show. Your best times in both competition events + your car show placing are factored and the winner is the team with the most points. Labor doesn't count against you so most teams use considerable fabrication, home brew engineering, and cleaver eBay buys to make for cool car concoctions. Every year the budget cap goes up by $1. Here's the 2009 rules: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/eve...allenge/rules/

The Dirt E30 Team placed 3rd at the $2009 GRM Challenge in their turbocharged, box flared E30

So... I started brainstorming some ideas with a few local gear heads and we came up with an outline that could potentially be a lot of fun: BMW E30 + V8 + wide wheels/tires/flares. We're already known for BMW's with V8 swaps, so why not do another one on the cheap? The Vorshlag LS1 powered E36 "Alpha car" also sold this week, and I already miss that car, so this E30 V8 project is a good way to begin the healing.

Honestly, I've always wanted to build a GRM $200X Challenge car, but only if it could be fast as hell. We always had some crazy fast race car around the shop until now, so the timing is finally right. This ain't going to be like 24 hours of LeMons here... we wouldn't be wearing funny costumes or dolling up the vehicle like some clown car (although some GRM Challenge teams do "get in the spirit" like this - that's just not my bag, baby). GRM has recently updated the Challenge rules to avoid tube framed cars and have even closed the "Zamboni loophole", and the teams themselves can protest other teams for BS overspending now. They also allow for a few select safety upgrades that are outside the budget, such as a 4-point roll bar, harnesses, and even new OEM brake hoses to replace the old/rotted junk.

Again, I only want to build a GRM Challenge car if it could be a legitimately fast track/auto-x car, and somehow tie-in with the Vorshlag business (maybe another V8 swap kit, based on things we learn in this project?). Hell, I'd even consider taking it to UTCC if it survives the $2010 Challenge. We already know that a lightweight BMW 3 series with a cool motor swap is fast, and with the right bits and tweaks it even handles and stops very well. We will have to build it on the cheap to meet the extremely low Challenge budget, using a lot of home built ingenuity and fabrication. That sure works for this crazy economy!

The rules/points are somewhat biased towards the autocross results, but the drag strip times and car show results are still important. We'll focus mainly on the autocross performance and get it done early enough to test the crap out of the setup. Then we will "make it light", then "make it pretty", and at some point get it to the drag strip to test the standing 1/4 miles times, too. Reliability will be a very high priority task - I hate race cars that break!

L: Cleaning underhood. R: "Uhh... we're gonna pass on this suggestion"

This array of events and skills needed to build a GRM Challenge car fits my personal background (drag racing/autocrossing/fabrication), as well as many on the talented crew of volunteers we've assembled for the Team. After our first meeting this week I'll post up the names of the Vorshlag Challenge Team and some of their backgrounds. Hell, we might even have a better team name by then. Here's the rust-free $500 Craigslist find we are starting with:

L: McCall, Amy and I looked at and paid for the car in the dark (never smart). R: We dragged the car to the shop the next morning

Its a 1986 BMW 325 coupe that doesn't quite run (fuel leak and dead battery), which looks a little raggedy, but has a partially restored interior with new aftermarket carpet, some Ebay-looking seats, new door panels, even a new dash. That's a lot of work, and it looks so nice that we're leaving much of the interior in place - which was not what we had intended to do. We were going to gut the car to the bone to get the lightest weight possible, but now we might leave it semi-street worthy, unlike the Alpha car. The stock 2.7L motor and 5-spd will be sold off to recoup some room in the budget, and we've already had some interest in that. This little gem was located about 8 miles away (sometimes you get damn lucky on CraigsList!), and team member, long-time Vorshlag Tester, and Z3M-LS1 builder Jason McCall and I dragged it to the Vorshlag shop using his truck and trailer.

L: We lucked out with this pristine/restored interior and cool seats. R: McCall fixing the hood release cable (so we could finally see the engine!)


L: Much of the car is disassembled. R: It cleaned up OK, but the paint is totally fried and the body is banged up

In the next thread update I will detail the drivetrain choices we're looking at using in the E30. Its not going to be the typical V8 we're known for here at Vorshlag, as the $2010 budget does not allow for an LS1 swap, not even close. Instead we're looking at lower cost V8 motors from 1990's sports/luxury cars. Don't try to guess what we'll use, because we don't even know for sure yet, but the 3 potential engine choices we've narrowed it down to are all very cool engines. I will also explain some of the other non-V8 motor choices and cars we explored, but dropped, and why. Just wait for Project Update #2, later this week.

[turbolx]

Originally Posted by fair

In the next thread update I will detail the drivetrain choices we're looking at using in the E30. Its not going to be the typical V8 we're known for here at Vorshlag, as the $2010 budget does not allow for an LS1 swap, not even close. Instead we're looking at lower cost V8 motors from 1990's sports/luxury cars.

Any reason not to consider something more readily available (less expensive) from the LS engine family like a 4.8l or 5.3l truck engine? These still support almost the same power as their big brothers at a small fraction of the cost. A friend of mine recently completed his own project car where we used a 5.3l Tahoe powertrain in a lightweight frame. You would never know it wasn't an LS6 to drive it. One would also think that this suits your current product lineup well.

[King Matt]

You have barely started and I am already calling BS on your budget for even considering an LS1 swap!

[fair]

Originally Posted by turbolx

Any reason not to consider something more readily available (less expensive) from the LS engine family like a 4.8l or 5.3l truck engine? These still support almost the same power as their big brothers at a small fraction of the cost. A friend of mine recently completed his own project car where we used a 5.3l Tahoe powertrain in a lightweight frame. You would never know it wasn't an LS6 to drive it. One would also think that this suits your current product lineup well.

I've looked at these and its still too much $$$. The widely spaced LSx truck accessories might have to be swapped to the more compact Camaro bits, and the obvious transmission choice (T56) is still too costly. We've got a maximum of $750 total to spend on the entire drivetrain... extreme budget constraints due to this event.



edit: Just checked eBay again and the oldest LSX 5.3's are going from $600-800, with the newer stuff for around $2000 (4.8s don't seem to be much cheaper). I saw one 5.3L "complete" with accessories and harness for $800 (the one pictured above). That's not terrible, but I dunno... the trans is still going to be some money. The old T56 and Camaro bellhousing we have here in the shop are both busted, but I've got some used clutches, a flywheel, and hyd TOB on hand. Crap, OK, we'll discuss it this Thursday.

Originally Posted by King Matt

You have barely started and I am already calling BS on your budget for even considering an LS1 swap!

No... I'm not considering it, people just keep suggesting it!

[LLave]

what about using T5 and just playing nice?

[fair]

Originally Posted by LLave

what about using T5 and just playing nice?

Yea, that's probably the only way we could make the budget work with an LSx truck motor, not to mention the weight hit that a T56 brings with it. 5 of the 6 bolt holes line up between an LS1 and the 3rd gen Camaro T5 bell housing, and its been done before, but it isn't exactly a super strong trans. An odd match up, for sure.

The Q45 motor + T5 wasn't as much of a discrepancy, as the Mustang T5 should handle the output of the Q45 motor pretty well.

We'll look into this more this week...

[Larry]

Way to go, Terry! I'm watching this one closely. Too bad you're so far away.

[gt40]

Originally Posted by Larry

Way to go, Terry! I'm watching this one closely. Too bad you're so far away.

I'm not!

Terry, I might be able to lend a hand. Let me know.

[Shortcutsleeping]

Originally Posted by fair

No... I'm not considering it, people just keep suggesting it!

Exactly. NO LSx! That's a budget KILLER (like the bmw v8s) and we need the money to actually make the car turn/brake/look decent.

Costas
cars and such...

[gt40]

Originally Posted by Shortcutsleeping

Exactly. NO LSx! That's a budget KILLER (like the bmw v8s) and we need the money to actually make the car turn/brake/look decent.

Old-school 350 and a T5?

[Auto-X Fil]

Around here you can pull a 5.0L from the yard for dirt cheap. Car-Part shows a lot of engines from Crown Vics for $100-200, guaranteed to run. They are a lot heavier than the Al motors, which I guess could be a deal breaker in such a light car.

If you want to make your own headers, I have a big box of mandrel bends I might let go for cheap. With a machine shop and good welders available that could be a great way to make big power for not much coin.

[Arty]

As I've been told;
"Big cubes are a crutch for no driving skills"

Do a "redneck rebuild" on the 2.5l and fun the ruck out of it.

[Glenn98ZM6]

i'm intrested in helping. got plenty of experiance getting LS1 cars running w/ minimal wiring connected (less than 10). cage fab and general wrenching.

i just saw a 5.3 motor long block in Victoria, TX for $250. i almost went to get if for a possible AI build.

keep looking. a cheap mild cam, cheap headers on a 5.3 will get you well over 350 rwhp.

[Mojave]

Neat project, if only you could find the budget to do an LSx...

The Texas A&M SAE Chapter built a Civic for this year and did pretty well: 5th overall and Editor's Choice Award. This car should be going back next year, along with a new car.

Don't let yourselves get beat by a bunch of college students.

[Ken Rahaim]

Originally Posted by Larry

Too bad you're so far away.

Ditto here... wished I was closer. Good luck on the build, Fair. I'm going to enjoy the updates.

[Shortcutsleeping]

Originally Posted by gt40

Old-school 350 and a T5?

We ruled out SBC and SBF as those jumped the shark a decade or two ago.

NO LSX! Even if would could find some random KILLER deal, nobody would believe it (I know I wouldn't) and we still need a clutch/trans and ecm and ...and...and....

We need every penny to make this pig turn and stick.



Costas
cars and such...

[3liter914-6]

Originally Posted by Arty

Do a "redneck rebuild" on the 2.5l and fun the ruck out of it.

I bet with little to no effort they could stroke that thing out to a 2.7L, heck they better break out the mic, somebody may have even beaten them to it.

Originally Posted by Shortcutsleeping

We ruled out SBC and SBF as those jumped the shark a decade or two ago.

NO LSX! Even if would could find some random KILLER deal, nobody would believe it (I know I wouldn't) and we still need a clutch/trans and ecm and ...and...and....

We need every penny to make this pig turn and stick.

Rover V8? Aluminum and fairly compact.

[Shortcutsleeping]

Ive got some all aluminum 215 experience, and they are usually not cheap. Nor can you cheaply make reliable boost. The last thing we want to have happen (read Fair's earlier posts) is boost something not ready for it and then (like so many others) look like fools at the competition for draggin a car across the country to only blow up in front of everyone. Ug.

The stated motor should be fine. We'll simplify and add lightness and KISS. We'll sort the h3ll out of it and hopefully do well.

Costas
cars and such...

[fair]

Originally Posted by Shortcutsleeping

Ive got some all aluminum 215 experience, and they are usually not cheap. Nor can you cheaply make reliable boost. The last thing we want to have happen (read Fair's earlier posts) is boost something not ready for it and then (like so many others) look like fools at the competition for draggin a car across the country to only blow up in front of everyone. Ug.

The stated motor should be fine. We'll simplify and add lightness and KISS. We'll sort the h3ll out of it and hopefully do well.

Costas
cars and such...

Yea, Costas has been the voice of reason (one of several) on our Team - he's already talked me out of a lot of crazy. I was actually considering this 5.3 stuff, but honestly, the LS1 E30 has already been done, and like he said - NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE IT for $2000. The LS1 is also a tight fit into an E30 (the DOHC motors we're looking at are wide too, but in different places).



It would be painful to do an LSx motor without the T56... they go together like peanut butter and jelly. And those two items wouldn't happen on this project without Arthur Andersen levels of accounting magic.

[Larry]

Originally Posted by Shortcutsleeping

Ive got some all aluminum 215 experience, and they are usually not cheap. Nor can you cheaply make reliable boost...

The '95 -? RR can be had with the 225 hp 4.6 with cross bolted mains (most Discoverys still have the 3.9/4.0 engine - same displacement btw). The downside is pretty much all US versions are autos with xfer cases unless you can score a bellhousing adapter from eBay or the Land Rover community. Retard the cam a few degrees.

[Apexcarver]

http://www.e30v8.com/ seems an easy answer (probably too easy for your taste

I have seen Nissan SR20 DET swaps, but im not sure how great that really would be.

Thinking about non-BMW swaps I keep coming back to Ford 302+T5 swaps as they are decently priced and fit decently. (manual brakes and make the exhaust headers go forward)

Hell, with some creative book keeping you might be able to also slap a turbo on there.


For perspective of those unfamiliar, this is a previous winner that and shows what they are up against these days.
http://www.vetteweb.com/features/vem...tte/index.html
C4 corvette with twin turbos and a Chapparal 2J like fan down force system.

[Damn True]

Perhaps a turbo ecotec mill out of a wrecked solstice or sky?

Not exactly plentiful, but it's light and nearly 300hp.

[e30power]

Build a "super ita" stroker and turbo the hell out of it. You should have a big flange trans already, so you dont have to worry about driveline problems.

[Alien]

FYI, in stock form, our Sky Redline dyno'd at 218hp

[Damn True]

Originally Posted by Alien

FYI, in stock form, our Sky Redline dyno'd at 218hp

That seems reasonable for an engine rated at 260 at the crank no?

[fair]

Originally Posted by Larry

The '95 -? RR can be had with the 225 hp 4.6 with cross bolted mains (most Discoverys still have the 3.9/4.0 engine - same displacement btw). The downside is pretty much all US versions are autos with xfer cases unless you can score a bellhousing adapter from eBay or the Land Rover community. Retard the cam a few degrees.

COST COST COST. Show me a $500 or less Land Rover V8 complete motor/ECM/harness. They don't exist.

Originally Posted by Damn True

Perhaps a turbo ecotec mill out of a wrecked solstice or sky? Not exactly plentiful, but it's light and nearly 300hp.

COST COST COST. Show me a $500 or less complete turbocharged Ecotec motor/harness/ECM/intercooler/turbo. They don't exist.

Originally Posted by RandomJoe

You should use a ZR1 motor!!!!ones11!!!

Remember - this whole car has to be built for $2010, folks.

Originally Posted by Apexcarver

http://www.e30v8.com/ seems an easy answer (probably too easy for your taste)...

Bah! Over my dead body... That's somewhat of a competitor to Vorshlag's E36 LS1 kit. Lots of shortcuts in that swap (as well as their E36 version). In a word - No.

Originally Posted by Apexcarver

I have seen Nissan SR20 DET swaps, but im not sure how great that really would be.

Already discussed this, and shot it the hell down. Cost is a major factor, well that and its not a V8.

Originally Posted by Apexcarver

Thinking about non-BMW swaps I keep coming back to Ford 302+T5 swaps as they are decently priced and fit decently. (manual brakes and make the exhaust headers go forward)

We will not be doing the "exhaust going forward" ghetto shortcut. No f'ing way. It may be good enough for Factory Five or some $300 swap kit, but this is not up to our standards. I'll hand build headers for 30 hours before I did that shortcut. Also, I hate to say it, but I don't want to use a motor from the 1960s in this swap (SBF = 1962; Buick aluminum V8 = 1960s. Buick V6 = 1960s). I want the motor to be newer than the chassis - this is part vanity, part marketing. I do love the SBF, but it is just a little too much "old school" for what we want to go for.

Originally Posted by Apexcarver

Hell, with some creative book keeping you might be able to also slap a turbo on there.

We're not going to "stretch the accounting" to sneak in some crazy ass setup. And as we've said several times already, we're also not going to do any nonsense like "just slapping a turbo" on any old non-factory turbo motor. It will blow the hell up and we'll look like ass hats. We want: reliable, simple, believable, and fast. That means no turbos. If we use the right, understressed, overbuilt factory motor (read: most modern EFI V8's) we should be able to beat on it relentlessly in a 2500 pound package, and it should still last.

Originally Posted by Apexcarver

For perspective of those unfamiliar, this is a previous winner that and shows what they are up against these days.
http://www.vetteweb.com/features/vem...tte/index.html C4 corvette with twin turbos and a Chapparal 2J like fan down force system.

Yea, that car pushed the accounting and engineering trickery to the limits and beyond (they spent far more than $2000 for the car alone!), and GRM has instituted several new rules to avoid that situation again, including competitor protest rules. Kudos the that "Cheaparral" Corvette team for the massive amount of hours they put into that machine, but I hope we never see anything like that car again at this "grassroots" event. They also didn't do the drag race portion of the event that year, and its often speculated that their Corvette might not have won overall if the drag event hadn't been rained out (it wasn't exactly a drag race beast).

This C4 sucker car sold on eBay for over $13,000 after it won the Challenge. We don't want to be lumped into that category of "no way! that's BS!" utter disbelief. I'd even be OK with instituting a claimer rule for this event (maybe 2X the budget), to avoid that level of overspending (as long as it was reasonable - maybe only the top ten finishing cars would be eligible in the claimer buy/sell).

Look, we're using a V8 in this project for a variety of reasons. It may not make perfect sense to some or all of you, but its a done deal. We don't have the exact motor nailed down yet, but we're close, and we should be test fitting the first V8 candidate at next week's Thursday night thrash. Just hold yer horses and we'll show you what we have in store very soon.

[Brian D]

Originally Posted by Damn True

Perhaps a turbo ecotec mill out of a wrecked solstice or sky?

Not exactly plentiful, but it's light and nearly 300hp.

Edit-can't link to car-part.com, but the cheapest one is 1800 bucks.

Terry, maybe you should have waited to post until after you had the engine.

[Damn True]

Originally Posted by Brian D

Edit-can't link to car-part.com, but the cheapest one is 1800 bucks.

Terry, maybe you should have waited to post until after you had the engine.

Just an idea. Geez guys.

Aren't you allowed to buy a donor car, take what you want off of it and part it out to recoup the cost delta? A lot of extra cycles to be taken up by that kind of additional work though. Hell I dunno.

[fair]

Originally Posted by Brian D

Terry, maybe you should have waited to post until after you had the engine.

Yea, you hit that nail on the head!

Originally Posted by Damn True

Just an idea. Geez guys.

No worries... I've just already seen 50 ideas like this already (here, on other forums, and via email from our team members) that completely obliterates the $2010 budget in the motor alone.

Originally Posted by Damn True

Aren't you allowed to buy a donor car, take what you want off of it and part it out to recoup the cost delta? A lot of extra cycles to be taken up by that kind of additional work though. Hell I dunno.

Thankfully GRM has changed the rules and limited that greatly - again, to avoid more $13,000 Corvette sucker car nonsense. Some teams in the past had bought and sold several cars and gotten away with too much. Now you can only "buy and sell" up to $1005 worth of stuff back into your budget, and you can never recoup more than you spent on a particular car.

Take our $500 1986 BMW 325e car. We can sell off bits from it all we want, but we can never recoup more than $500 into our total budget. Best case we can sell off the old motor, trans, wheels/tires, and only get the initial cost of the car back to $0, which effectively raises our budget to $2510. That's still not a lot of money. We're not going to be pushing the Enron accounting too far, as I don't want to go down this road as far as we're even allowed to. Yes, we'll probably recoup about $400-500 from selling off the existing BMW drivetrain and some other bits we replace, but that's as far as I want to push it. We want this to be a believable $2010 Challenge entry.

[FS78]

Terry and his team have constraints that may be different than we think. Terry and co. haven't come right out and said it this way but...

This car will, in a sense, represent Vorschlag, simply because Terry is involved. So I am guessing anything that smells even remotely fishy budget wise is out. It would be bad for business (and it just isn't Terry's style).

I suspect Terry and co's choice of motor will be one that fits the budget and one that advances or at least doesn't harm Vorschlag's marketing message. Hence the focus on a V8. Hence the focus on reliability, handling and looks. Ugly and spewing fluid out holes in the block is poor marketing

I am putting words in Terry's mouth and perhaps overstating the obvious so I'll shut my dumbass up.

I look forward to watching this thing come to life. Terry, are you going to drag Soup Daddy into this?

[LLave]

How about a Lexus V8? 1UZ-FE to the R150 (?) transmission?

Here is one on flea-bay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-U...Q5fAccessories

Though its hard to imagine that is cheaper than a 4.8/5.3

[Arty]

In the econo dirt class in my area the first place car can be bought by any other competitor for $2000. Keeps the big dollar guys from trying to dominate the class.

To me the "spirit" of the cheap race car is being pushed to the limits. It's starting to loose it's appeal.
Should be something the "grassroots" guy can throw together in his backyard/garage for a little pocket change and have fun. [rant off]

[fair]

Originally Posted by FS78

Terry and his team have constraints that may be different than we think. Terry and co. haven't come right out and said it this way but...

Doug, you nailed it perfectly... I couldn't have said it better in 5000 words (and I was about to try doing just that) - Thanks.

As for Soup Daddy, yea, I need to see if he's interested. We've already nabbed several of the old TAMSCC Dallas crew on this project.

Originally Posted by LLave

How about a Lexus V8? 1UZ-FE to the R150 (?) transmission?

Though its hard to imagine that is cheaper than a 4.8/5.3

Actually it is a motor we seriously considered. And there has been an E30 1UZ done (RHD car in New Zealand). I'll post a video of this thing - it sounds SO nice. The problem with the Lexus motor, as we discussed in the Infiniti Q45 "VH45" engine tech? thread here on c-c, is that the early 1UZ V8 was pretty anemic... now I'm going to do the odd thing of quoting myself, quoting another person ("I'm the dude playin' the dude, disguised as another dude!"):

The early 1UZ is a bit more lackluster than the later ones, and for that reason we're leaning away from this possible engine choice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_UZ_engine:

In its standard, original trim with 10:1 compression, power output is 256 hp, torque of 260 ft·lbf. The engine was slightly revised in 1995 with lighter connecting rods and pistons and an increased compression ratio to 10.4:1 resulting in peak power of 261 hp and torque of 268 lb·ft. In 1997, Toyota's VVT-i variable valve timing technology was introduced along with a further CR increase to 10.5:1, bumping power and torque to 290 hp and 300 ft·lbf. In the GS400 application, output was rated at 300 hp and 310 ft-lb of torque.

The 1UZ seems to be gaining power through the years and 1997-up is the year to get. The problem that brings is cost - the newer the motor, the more expensive it gets.

And here's where I am letting the cat out of the bag:

That's the beauty of the Infiniti Q45 motor (VH45DE). Its larger @ 4.5L and made 280 hp through the entire run of the 1989-1996 model years. You can find them cheap since they are older. $300-500 is hard to argue with. Hell, I found one locally for under $100!

OK, I'll have this VH45DE motor here by Friday. It might not fit the car easily. The 1UZ might not fit, either. No, these DOHC V8s don't have the absolute potential of the LSX motors, but we cannot afford to use a built LSX anything in this project anyways. An all aluminum DOHC V8, with 4.5L and 280hp stock, with 6 bolt mains and 7000 rpm stock rev capacity, all for under $500 complete, is hard to ignore.


L: VH45DE motor from 1989-1996 Q45. R: VH45 motor with Mustang T5 attached

So now you know - we're probably using the early Q45 motor in this E30. There, I spoiled the surprise. Santa isn't real. You've ruined Christmas!

[Soma07]

Originally Posted by fair

That means no turbos. If we use the right, understressed, overbuilt factory motor (read: most modern EFI V8's) we should be able to beat on it relentlessly in a 2500 pound package, and it should still last.

No turbo's, unless its Honda Appantly cheap parts to turbo a Civic fall out of the sky on Ebay. Back in '07 I was talking to the guy who built the Richard Petty look a like Civic. He said the manifold was one of those cheap $50 ebay specials and it was already cracking after like 1-2hrs or run time. Not that that mattered because that's about five times longer than it actually needs to run for the challenge.

Anyhow as I mentioned in your other thread you have the right idea of a lightweight, modestly powered car. With the exception of the sucker vette the autocross is always won by something light, well sorted suspension wise, and well driven. The really radical stuff usually doesn't run for shit or its just so poorly sorted even the expert drivers can't get a decent time out of it.

As for the budget aren't you better off buying something closer to the $2010 limit so you'll be able to recoup more $$$? For instance, if I buy an E30 for $2000, sell as much as I can to recoup all of it, then add my $2010 budget I effectively have a car and $4010 to play correct? I've always meant to ask the GRM guys when I see them but as far as I can tell that's legal.

[fair]

Originally Posted by Soma07

...as I mentioned in your other thread you have the right idea of a lightweight, modestly powered car. With the exception of the sucker vette the autocross is always won by something light, well sorted suspension wise, and well driven. The really radical stuff usually doesn't run for shit or its just so poorly sorted even the expert drivers can't get a decent time out of it.

Yep. Power doesn't win autocrosses - weight and handling does. As Costas already stated: "We'll simplify and add lightness and KISS. We'll sort the h3ll out of it and hopefully do well." We're hoping that a mostly stock DOHC V8 motor with a simple, uncorked exhaust & intake can crack 260 whp, and for the total chassis weight to be under 2500 lbs. We'll use circle track 15x10 wheels and try to score some 275 Hoosiers (that exact wheel & tire package was good enough for the "Team Dirt E30" entry to take 2nd in the auto-x).

Originally Posted by Soma07

As for the budget aren't you better off buying something closer to the $2010 limit so you'll be able to recoup more $$$? For instance, if I buy an E30 for $2000, sell as much as I can to recoup all of it, then add my $2010 budget I effectively have a car and $4010 to play correct? I've always meant to ask the GRM guys when I see them but as far as I can tell that's legal.

Go back and read post # 29. You can only recoup $1005 total, and its limited on how you get there. Basically you can spend more on the car, but you're never going to get the car's cost below $0.

More on the DOHC V8 motors: The Infiniti Q45 (VH45DE) motor isn't definite, yet, mostly because of the trouble fitting a manual trans, and the width of the Nissan VH DOHC V8 (27"? 29"?). The 1UZ Toyota/Lexus V8 has the exact same issues. Going to take some measurements of the VH45 myself when we have a motor in hand because the interweb numbers all all over the place. If the VH45 can fit in the car it will likely get used for this project.

This is the other DOHC V8 that could be used - the Lexus/Toyota 4 liter:


L: Lexas 4.0L DOHC V8 (1UZ-FE) in BMW E30. R: Lexas 4.0L DOHC V8 (1UZ-FE) dimensions

This Lexus LS400 4.0L V8 is only 26" wide (dim "F" in the pic above) and makes decent power numbers from 1997-up, but they get pricier than the older Q45 motors in a hurry.

Here's a quick breakdown of the DOHC Nissan/Infiniti V8 series of engines:

• 1989-1996 Q45 used a 4.5L VH45DE 278 hp and 292 lb·ft, forged crank/rods/sodium filled valves, 7000 rpm. Sell for $375-500
• 1997-2001 Q45 used a 4.1L VH41DE 268 hp and 278 lb·ft. These sell for $500 but are undesirable for swaps.
• 2002-2006 Q45 used a 4.5L VK45DE 340 hp 333 lb-ft. These sell for $1200+ (too expensive)

Here's a track video of that E30 with the 1UZ Lexus V8: http://www.youtube.com/user/Drifty32.../2/K-AX5SzSLnk

And here's a "drift" video of a 240SX with the Nissan 4.5L V8 (please forgive the driftardiness - just turn up the volume): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsoABDnZC4

More soon.

[emohn]

Terry,

Not sure if this is still available or not, but I thought it might make a good engine donor that could *easily* be parted out to bring cost down to $0.00

http://www.roadraceautox.com/showthr...ighlight=lexus

-Erik

[LLave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_cRQhW7nj8 Maybe just a little turbo??

[JUrban]

Have you looked at the Northstar variants? The L47 4.0l from the Olds Aurora is compact, all aluminum, decent power (250hp/260ft-lbs). If an Aurora can make it into LeMons you can probably score an engine on the cheap . Same for the Cadillac types.

[Damn True]

Originally Posted by JUrban

Have you looked at the Northstar variants? The L47 4.0l from the Olds Aurora is compact, all aluminum, decent power (250hp/260ft-lbs). If an Aurora can make it into LeMons you can probably score an engine on the cheap . Same for the Cadillac types.

Aren't those all transverse and automatic? I would think that solving those issues, getting it linked to an appropriate trans would tip the trouble:cost ratio.

[Soma07]

Originally Posted by fair

Go back and read post # 29. You can only recoup $1005 total, and its limited on how you get there. Basically you can spend more on the car, but you're never going to get the car's cost below $0.

Gotcha, so your budget is $3015 max ($2010 + 1005).

Anyhow I think you should give up on this GRM challenge nonsense and get to work on an E46 LS1 swap kit. I've got a 328i thats dying for more power